Discussion:
Annual PSA Test
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h***@gmail.com
2018-04-21 19:03:56 UTC
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Had my fifteenth yearly PSA test this month. Results were 0.17 up from last years 0.14. Guess it's raising its ugly head. Hopefully it keeps rising slowly. I probably won't due anything at my age (77) and just monitor it. MY original PSA was 6.2 and Gleason was 3+4=7. Had LRP in 2003 and nothing else.

Ron S.
Alan Meyer
2018-04-22 00:51:33 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Had my fifteenth yearly PSA test this month. Results were 0.17 up from last years 0.14. Guess it's raising its ugly head. Hopefully it keeps rising slowly. I probably won't due anything at my age (77) and just monitor it. MY original PSA was 6.2 and Gleason was 3+4=7. Had LRP in 2003 and nothing else.
Ron S.
Assuming that there were 12 months between tests, that the rise was
spread out over the entire 12 months, and the tests are accurate and
done with the same technology and calibration, the doubling time is 3.57
years according to this calculator:

http://www.doubling-time.com/compute-PSA-doubling-time.php

That looks good for active surveillance, but you do want to emphasize
the active part of that. For example, if all of the increase occurred
only in the last month instead of spread out over the whole year then
the doubling time is under 4 months. So I suggest doing quarterly tests
a couple of times just to be sure you're not looking at an artifact of
the time periods. You might even consider a test in a month and a
consultation with a radiation oncologist if the rise is faster than you
are expecting.

I think that, whatever happens, you're unlikely to die of prostate
cancer. But it is a good idea to pay attention.

Good luck.

Alan
I.P. Freely
2018-04-23 20:23:41 UTC
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Post by Alan Meyer
You might even consider a test in a month and a
consultation with a radiation oncologist if the rise is faster than you
are expecting.
I suggest wearing hip boots at that consultation. The entire
interdisciplinary tumor board of a major medical institution were
adamant that I undergo full-blown salvage radiation (SRT) when my PSA
took off 10 years post-op. Their only rationale was "Just In Case" ...
*just in case* the source was in my old prostate bed.

I don't operate ... or irradiate or take 18 prescription drugs (some
with high risks of serious to crippling side effects) ... that way.
Instead, I do enough literature research to answer these two absolutely
vital questions as best as I can:

1. Does this oncologist know what the heck s/he's talking about?

The answer in my case with several oncologists of all specialties was
not only "No" but "Hell, no". Sez who? Sez the top tier radiation
oncologists who taught these "several oncologists" their trade. Sez
definitive and irrefutable scans of my abdomen, which clearly ruled out
SRT. Sez their own published studies which produced MSK's SRT nomogram*.
Sez the errors I caught and they corrected in their paper and nomogram.
And sez the ensuing scans that finally *PROVED* my recurrence was
exactly where I thought it was: Somewhere outside the prostate bed and
thus unreachable by SRT.

* I would never even consider SRT without feeding my numbers into MSK's
SRT nomogram (Google it) to get my own personal likelihood of benefit.

2. Which treatment (including observation) is best FOR ME?

Upon close examination, my (and everyone else's) priorities are
different from the next patient's and from every oncologist's.

Both of those, separately and in conjunction, have encouraged and
enabled me to make some life-altering decisions I still support after
many years of heavy duty reexamination.

It's too late for Hikerman's initial decision, but a G 3+4 prostate
cancer often needs no active treatment in the first place, because it
often behaves like a 3+3 often (usually?) does ... i.e., it's going
nowhere in our lifetime. That's a major reason why routine PSA screening
has been discouraged: too many patients and too many oncologists panic
and act for no reason just because of a cancer diagnosis, incurring
decades of side effects with no benefit.

Similarly, my present oncology clinic wants me on several drugs based on
a few carefully chosen studies showing some benefit and not even
addressing side effects unless they are very common AND
life-threatening (that shocking paradigm pervades peer-reviewed
literature). Second only to my main anti-cancer drug (testosterone), my
medical oncologist strongly urges statins for me way ahead of whatever's
in third place. It took me about one minute to find a copy of Evans'
book, "Statins Toxic Side Effects: Evidence from 500 Scientific Papers".
I'm highlighting, annotating, and sending it to him just for starters.
Next, I'll condense several books written by world-renowned
cardiologists, medical statisticians, and the like proving that statins
benefit almost no one who hasn't already had their first heart attack
... if even them. Women with the highest cholesterol live the longest,
the same goes for men past age 65, and simple dietary changes can do far
more for our lipids profile, with zero risk, than any known drug can.

It's knowledge like that which persuades and encourages me to keep
reading, keep questioning every recommendation, keep trying out or
rejecting prescribed drugs until I'm convinced their benefits outweigh
their risks TO ME, and keep ultimately making my own decisions. That's
priceless.

I.P.
h***@gmail.com
2018-04-22 15:20:15 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Had my fifteenth yearly PSA test this month. Results were 0.17 up from last years 0.14. Guess it's raising its ugly head. Hopefully it keeps rising slowly. I probably won't due anything at my age (77) and just monitor it. MY original PSA was 6.2 and Gleason was 3+4=7. Had LRP in 2003 and nothing else.
Ron S.
After last years test results, I had another test immediately from another lab and the results were non-detectable. I'll wait another year and see what the VA test shows. At the rate that it is increasing, I probably won't do anything.
I.P. Freely
2018-04-23 20:43:48 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
After last years test results, I had another test immediately from another lab and the results were non-detectable. I'll wait another year and see what the VA test shows. At the rate that it is increasing, I probably won't do anything.
But our PSA rate can very suddenly change very dramatically. Mine jumped
from years (BOOOOORRRRING)to 4 months (*BAD*, life-changing news) in
just one quarter. But then mine was a 4+4, a whole different kind of
cancer than a 3+4. That first number really matters.

Changing labs changes everything, as Alan said. Just one example is
which protocol they use; there are two, split roughly 50/50 among labs
worldwide, and their results differ by 20-40% with little predictable
consistency. And one's lab's "undetectable" is the next lab's "How many
decimal places do ya want?".

On the distant other hand, if and when you decide to pursue SRT, its
benefits to you are dropping as we type. Clearly past PSA = 0.2 and even
more seriously past 0.5, the window of SRT benefit is closing ...
presuming, obviously, that whatever is producing your PSA climb is in
and ONLY in the field irradiated by the SRT. My oncologist rejects that
presumption across the board. After all, our prostate was pumping cancer
cells directly into our bloodstream LONG before we even thought about
prostate cancer.

I.P.
h***@gmail.com
2018-04-23 20:57:12 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Had my fifteenth yearly PSA test this month. Results were 0.17 up from last years 0.14. Guess it's raising its ugly head. Hopefully it keeps rising slowly. I probably won't due anything at my age (77) and just monitor it. MY original PSA was 6.2 and Gleason was 3+4=7. Had LRP in 2003 and nothing else.
Ron S.
IP< (I agree with your comments whole heartily. I never believed in any kind of radiation. It never made any sense to me. The only question I have is what would have happened if I hadn't had LRP. I'll never know but I seriously doubt I'll ever take any further treatment. Quality of life is more important to me than longevity.
Ron S.
I.P. Freely
2018-04-24 01:34:45 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
IP< (I agree with your comments whole heartily. I never believed in any kind of radiation.
Oops! I didn't mean to imply that I didn't believe in it. That's why I
kept emphasizing MY case. My internal organs are all displaced by the
removal of my prostate and half of my colon, and a large minority of the
populace begin with that issue. In MY CASE, the altered internal
topography means that SRT would severely impact my bladder and rectum,
guaranteeing drastic side effects and subsequent surgeries on top of my
pre-existent morbidities. Additionally, the MSK SRT nomogram shows that
my likelihood of any benefit is well below 0.1.

In fact, I welcomed radiation once they found something to irradiate.
One particular kind of F-18 scan finally found a tumor inside my T6
vertebra, a very easy spot to irradiate IN MY CASE. That, plus several
other features of MY CASE, plus newly approved hypofractionated
radiation allowed my local radiation oncologist to zap my 8mm tumor in
one five-minute session I never felt.
Post by h***@gmail.com
It never made any sense to me.
It has its places, such as mine.
Post by h***@gmail.com
The only question I have is what would have happened if I hadn't had LRP. I'll never know
That's right.
Post by h***@gmail.com
I seriously doubt I'll ever take any further treatment.
You probably won't need to, but it's more about WHICH treatment than
about WHETHER.
Post by h***@gmail.com
Quality of life is more important to me than longevity.
Many, many most, patients of my PC-only clinic claim their QOL is
*improved*, both immediately and long-term, by his treatment. i.e., he
reduced, maybe immensely, their symptoms while in many cases giving them
years to decades of vigor after other big-name cancer centers and
oncologists like Snuffy Myers had exhausted their bags of tricks. I and
many other patients of my medical oncologist feel clearly BETTER
immediately after his patented (seriously) chemo treatments than we did
that morning. Shopping, a round of golf, windsurfing, tennis, a long
flight, a rough day at the office ... his chemo treatments *enhance*
such things -- i.e., our QOL -- while *strengthening* our immune systems.

I HAD to do SOMETHING because my PSA was 52 and doubling every 4 months.
The Mayo Clinic and its Pacific NW counterpart told me to take hormone
therapy/ADT until it killed me. Two problems with that: one, it will ...
kill us, that is. Two: the median time for that to happen is under three
years.

I hope ... dare I say plan? ... to still be windsurfing in gale force
winds three years from now.

I.P.

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